Happy Miner is proud that he's too stupid to survive without CCP holding his hand and leading him to water. Bet you that in 6 months we're gonna hear Happy Miner turn into Sad Miner complaining that CCP hasn't forced him to drink.

The same 3 mil ship will take down any heavy assault ship and recon in the same time if they dont tank their ships.

Pilgrim hull has less tank than a hulk hull.

Because the miners never did it and thus aren't a party in the conversation. Had miners ever been intelligent enough to fit a tank, and gankers whined that suddenly ships survived, then the miners could have countered with that argument, just like how gankers countered the miner's whines with GÇ£fit a tankGÇ¥.

Not necessarily, but Soundwave saying "well you should lose more than the victim in hisec" along with what I've seen of their intentions with the insurance nerf, Crimewatch, this dumbing down of the game - yeah, welcome to a risk-free hisec.

You haven't heard of Crimewatch, have you?

And quit saying "well if u wan2 pvp go to lo/nul/wh cuz thts whar evry1 pvps" - I haven't suicide ganked anything in hisec since our ice interdiction, but I don't believe that hisec should be a safe, fun, happy carebear land.

Miners are just going to whine when it's 6 Catalysts killing their Hulks and Mackinaws instead of 1 or 2. Then CCP will implement more changes to nerf suicide ganking. What's the difference?

the difference between recons and hulks is that the recons take active measures to protect themselves

call me when a recon can mine 3000 ore/minute or do literally anything that generates wealth

unlike a recon, a hulk pays for itself

how much effort is required for exploration compared to, say, warping a hulk to your favorite bookmark and setting the lasers free on three different asteroids for ~max afkness~

Problem: highsec is where the profitable targets are. Moving outside of highsec means more risk for less reward.

Yes. His proposed solution is counter-productive.

I know right? Nerf L4s to the ground, remove incursions from hisec and nerf hisec exploration into the ground. Then we'll talk about how bad "risk-free, high-profit" gameplay is for the game.

even though many of the hypocrites in this thread want local removed from nullsec because of bots lmao

please someone answer the question

empire freighter alts are so 2007, pubbies will haul your freighter-sized loads for peanuts these days

Imposing large punitive costs removes a large % of players from the 'ganker' pool.
Forcing gankers exclusively into large groups of destroyers, cuts down on variety and leads to boring tactics, as well as cutting out those players in odd time zones, or those without a large alliance to back them up.

The hard work of Moon Goo is fighting to keep it.

yeah the NC had a ton of supercaps and controlled nearly all of the tech and nobody has been able to challenge them so far

that's why Morsus Mihi, Majesta Empire, Stella Polaris and them still own all of the north

did it predate crucible? did it have its hardeners running? did it have an obscene number of ships on its killmail? was it at war with the dudes who killed it?

the height of irony is when the risk-averse hisec miner complains about "nullbears" who face infinitely more risk than he does for the marginally higher reward

nobody said that a tanked hulk cannot be ganked, please don't put words in our mouths

we said that a tanked hulk would not be worth bothering with unless somebody was hell-bent on killing you anyway

since it's so safe why don't you pack up and move to 0.0?

Confirmed, your survey scanner has to be on your hulk for it to work.

I thought you said 0.0 was perfectly safe?

19k ehp is pretty goddamned low for a hulk even with a survey scanner in the mids

You don't need to use one at all. Your lasers don't break if they run out of ore mid-cycle, do they? Nope. It's a yield module fitted at the expense of tank.

Why would the Orca be 70-80km from the Hulk?

1) ECM drones - requires a very minor sacrifice (can't use mining drones) but can easily mean the difference between a gank attempt succeeding or otherwise. somewhat AFK friendly as you can have them out on aggressive mode with focused fire.

So? What benefit do you get from putting it 80km from the Hulks? Doing stupid stuff because you want to is fine, but you don't get to complain that it's inconvenient.

3) fitting a brick tank - if you specifically tank for Catalysts (meta 4 MSE, invuln, kinetic hardener, thermic hardener), you can easily get close to 50k EHP against blasters, which is nothing to shake a stick at. requires relevant fitting skills at V and a genolution set (which is cheap) and a +1% PG implant (which is laughably cheap)

A tanked Hulk will trivially tank HS rats.

We're talking about HS. Did you forget again?

In Null, you don't need much tank at all because if you get pointed you die period. No hoping the hostile is low on DPS.

please tell me how you'd get into a POS when you're tackled in a grav site/belt

do the belts spawn anything else then frigs?

if you can't deal with belt rats in hisec please just unsub and find an easier game

>belt rats in incursion constellations

holy **** talk about grasping at straws

But again, we're talking about HS.

You're the only one claiming that ganking miners is "challenging" or "elite" or any of the other words.

If he's AFK, there's no reason for him to have a Survey scanner, so he can easily fit a brick tank which is unprofitable to gank anywhere in HS.

You really have ****** reading comprehension skills, don't you. Ganking Hulks isn't challenging. I never said it was. The only time anyone says it's challenging is when you say it.

Where have I ever complained when a miner has fitted a tank?

If a Miner fits a Tank, I'll be shocked.

Since you haven't been paying attention, that's my entire point. Miners have been whining that they have to fit a tank [gasp] while refusing to do so. They can fit a tank such that you cannot be profitably suicide ganked.

If they do so, GREAT!

But they don't. Instead, CCP has decided to reward them for their stunning incompetence and changed the Hull so that fitting a tank is irrelevant.

because you can already fit one but you don't want to sacrifice that ~max yield~ so you want it to already come on your hulk so that you don't have to be burdened with making such a difficult choice like "do I want to keep my ship"

please show me the "tank" on your exhumer

no, the civilian shield booster you have does not constitute a tank

here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16196592/Hulk%20-%20catalyst%20tanked.jpg

they'd need 3 catalysts to kill you in an 0.5 and that's without any gang bonuses, fit a shield resist link on an orca and you'll get close to 50k against blasters, while still having more "uniform" EHP than what you have on that fit, and you're not really going to do much better against thrashers in either case

the stacking penalties are only screwing you over when you're fitting that many invulns

you can't fit a T2 MSE on that setup anyway since CPU and PG hardwirings use the same slot, and this fit completely uses both, and that's with a genolution set (cheap) and a +1% PG hardwiring (even cheaper)

Oh, you mean the fit that you claimed over and over again wouldn't be able to stop a HS gank?

the veldnaught can be ganked if you bring enough ships to kill it

2. Never said it couldn't. Just that it can't be profitably tanked (something that you disagreed with, ad nauseaum in another thread).

if you actually disputed that your hulk can't be profitably ganked in any sec, well, i think you're vastly overestimating how valuable the drops/salvage are

also fyi that doesn't pay for 3 T2 fit catalysts

also a T2 fit catalyst costs a good 15M

yeah if you think that gankers have a fully operational t2 production chain, well

now you're just making crap up lol

please quote the part where he said that gankers produce all of their ships and modules from scratch

because, as we've seen from posts, they actually want PvP removed from hisec, see all of the "well if u wan2 pvp u shuld go 2 low or null bc hi is 4 pve only" crap

with crimewatch, ganking idiots who officer fit their mission ships and carry 20 plexes in shuttles will mean that your mule alt will have to deal with being shot at by dudes with neutral logis that you can't shoot at

and you can't really kill that proteus yourself because, well, it's basically you vs everyone in hisec

with

a

tank

fitted

yes we should just give exhumers the agility and speed of a dramiel, the tank of a brick damnation and the mining yield of a hulk just because

i guess a damnation should be able to mine just like a hulk then, because it's expensive too

the curse is an amarr ship

i thought the gold plated hull and "amarr cruiser" requirement would give that away

As opposed to miners being told "bring RR" and flat-out refusing to invest any more effort into their gameplay?

Last time we ran into this, you decided you'd gank the Scimi with two Rail Nados at 250km o.0

2 Rail Nagas at 250km cannot Suicide Gank any reasonably fit Scimitar.

Hi, my name is Alpha.

You can't log in a faceless alt because you have to create a portrait. Duh.

The thing is, Titans had to be nerfed because they weren't being killed, but could kill subcaps in 1 shot regardless of using a DD or not.

So you're of the mindset that hisec should be a risk-free, high-reward area?

Kind of like Trammel!

you can print more isk running the newly buffed OTAs in hisec in a kitchen sink fleet than blitzing anoms in nullsec with a faction battleship

So.

Would give a bit more meaning to where you mine sec wise, even in high sec. As long as it stated it right on the mining laser so miners would read it, look at their 0.9 system and go, "Aww.... maybe I should look into low/null/unknown space for really good yield.."

Mimimimimi......check out on Sisi rigth now, seems CCP has listened to your whinning thread Herr Wilkus......they lowred the stats from the Miningships down again to something more fitting your needs beeing able to easy gank them.

So again the loudest vocal whiner voices from the PvP fraction have won again......Shame on you CCP.

Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.

They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please.

actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus.

Put a meta EM Hardener on there and see what it changes to?

Anyway, nobody is forced to fit any tank to avoid ganks. They only have to fit a brick tank to avoid ALL profitable ganks in .5 sec space while totally AFK.

Just because you don't know how to tank a Hulk properly, doesn't mean the Hulk needs a buff.

In that case, we're talking about post 1.2 where the way to tank your ship is to USE. A. SKIFF.

And a Hulk being fragile is fine because it's the ship you use when you have friends to help defend you.

I can assure you that the stupidity of people is such that in 9 years they indeed never learn a very simply lesson. Fit a damn tank.

This thread is comedy frikken gold...

I'm saying you camp the Hulks. And you will Blap a Catalyst (probably 2) before their 20s are up. You lock faster than they do, and you kill one every other ~3.5s cycle. That means, unless they bring an extra 1 or 2 Catalysts to the Gank, the Hulk survives.

Also you will have to explain to us why fitting a tank which will stop you from getting killed is irrelevant. Given that being killed is what you are whining about.

http://i.imgur.com/x7d0o.jpg Just look at that tank. for the tier 1 mining barge.

Again. The Mackinaw's large enough tank removes any value that the Skiff's even larger tank has for miners, so as it stands now, the Skiff has no role whatsoever. You get it? I want all 3 Exhumers to have a role. With the current stats, only 2 of them do.

Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.

Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one too

How does one learn how to shoot another player besides actually shooting another player?

Saying that they are not homogenizing mining ships doesn't make it so. They are doing the opposite of what you suggest. Oh look I can make a blatant statement without proof too.

It is for Miners.

Because what will happen is mining will become the worst profession again and then all the miners will throw forum tantrums again until CCP buffs mining again. I don't care if it becomes a terrible profession again, but I do care that CCP is giving in to stupid things like forum tantrums from people that basically want pvp removed from highsec.

Miners have always been able to do this as well; they simply chose not to.

We don't hate miners; we simply can't bring ourselves to sympathize with the stupid ones.

No, Miners are stupid because they cba to fit a dang tank or fly their ships to avoid ganks.

Even if it were true that they can't fit enough tank to survive a profitable gank in .5 (it's not), there's no reason they can't head to safer space where the cost to gank them hovers around the cost of the ship.

Where did I say you could? Where did anyone say you could. The only reason you think someone said that is because you never learned how to figure out antecedents.

Ever heard of "safety in numbers"?

Thats why you fit a tank.

Fit a Midslot/Rigslot Tank and MLUs and mine in 1.0space and you'll be fine.

front line fleet armour ships

Nope. Because now you have the Skiff. If you're worried about suicide ganking, you use the Skiff. The Mack and Hulk are for other situations where you're not worried about it.

Nope it's a Solo ship. It's not just an AFK ship.

Go look up the tier 3 battlecruisers

just TRY and fit a tank to those

You can try, but its a fairly pointless exercise

edit - waitwaitwait.... im not beign drawn into this therad again

you almost had me

Thats because barges are not combat ships. They are only for mining and thus, fit differently to combat ships. Problem with miners is that they think that they should get the max yeild and still be able to have a good tank. No other ship can do this so why should miners?

Of course we can't stop you, but we can gank you if you do. Ceptors and Recons who aren't paying attention are really easy to gank (especially since your Recon will have to be active tanked).

AFK Exploration Pilgrims in a site* are pretty easy to gank. Just like AFK Mining ships. If you're ATK and flying it properly, a mining barge will be safe, just like an ATK Pilgrim.

I really dont understand why anyone would fly a skiff (to mine in, lots of comedy PVP possibilities though) or fit tanking mods after these changes - the only purpose of tank on a mining ship is, realistically, to deter suicide gankers and that simply wont be necessary anymore after the changes go live.

Being Cloaked AFK is to being AFK in a station in a Barge (No Income, No Risk)

They also stand about the same chance of having a meteorite hit them in the gonads.

No, everyone has some degree of risk aversion and those things are pretty much the thing not to lose so it'll just mean more people logged out in super caps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAB6UxUo-rc

Even if the gankers are indeed crying about the changes, the people who so helpfully point it out seem to overlook the decade of crying they themselves have done about anything and everyone that has impeded their ability to mission/mine/circlejerk in peace. It's basically a case of the pot calling the kettle a severely derogatory racial epithet.

maybe the miners should fit these things called "shield extenders" and "hardeners" instead of having a tank given to them on a silver platter

sorry if you can't make such tough choices like "15% more yield or 300% better tank"

Are you even in Nullsec? There's no real money to be had compared to running level 4 missions forever, unless you rat in a carrier.

60m/hr ratting is nothing compared to grinding the incursion equivalent of l2 missions for 120m/hr

or i'll just rephrase your dumb ideas: "please make hisec 100% risk-free"

"oh man i won't have NPCs fight my battles for me, THE HORROR"

I'd like to know this as well.

I remember it being stated they get a 7.5% bonus to shield resists per level, is this still in place?

Officer spawns cannot be soloed.

exhumers have always had t2 resists by virtue of, well, being t2 hulls

The current income ranking for shooting red crosses is something like

Wormholes > Incursions (highsec) > Pro ratting in a carrier/carrier assisted tengu(nullsec) > Pro level 4s in a pimped marauder (highsec) = Tengu ratting (nullsec) > Drake/belt ratting (nullsec) > Bad level 3-4s (highsec)

While the risk/effort is

Wormholes >= sov nullsec >>>>>>> level 4s and highsec incursions

There's nothing wrong with characters above -5 doing ganks. It only becomes a problem when these characters are recycled. But then, you can do your own player-policing by petitioning them, since it's an offense that gets punished.

Would you mind posting the current resist profile and ship bonuses to resists here for those of us not up with the latest SiSi build?

those aren't t1 resists hope this helps

It's a bit dishonest to pick a battlecruiser and one of the best natural T1 shield tanks in the game,wouldn't you agree?

...

I find it peculiar that you act like t1 resists on a t2 ship is a normal thing?

plus - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hulk

you can check there for the current tranqulity hulk details, and it clearly has a t2 resist profile.

I hope this explains my apparent surprise that they lowered the resist profile

But... maybe you are doing it all wrong because to my eyes you are posting the resistance profile of a Covetor

Well, if thats how you think its done, why dont you scan down the POD in space and come kill me?

Negative ten toons are flashy red and able to be shot at by anyone, thats the consequence

deal with it

-10's in a pod can be shot on sight

please stop saying things that are entirely untrue, feel free to test this on sisi

outlaw pods have been legal targets since ever

please stop trying to spread misinformation like that

you refuse to test it and you refuse to believe that you can shoot outlaw pods

believe it or not, you can, i'm sorry that you're terribly misinformed

Do you even play this game?

consensual pvp for testing purposes is allowed everywhere

If you can't alpha a destroyer, you're doing something wrong.

if only we had two cheapass battlecruiser hulls that can be fit to instalock and pop catalysts with high-alpha turrets

if only

pod yourself with that alt till it's -5 (doesn't take very long)

no you do not, you'd have to be reported by the guy you podded

and well i don't think your alt is suddenly going to develop an independent consciousness and report you for podding outside of the designated systems

I have no idea what I'm doing (you're right)!

[Hurricane, Instacane]

Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M

Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I

Locks a Catalyst in 1 second.
A direct hit alphas an untanked Catalyst.

Can I have a gold star now?

RF EMP does 3879 damage per Volley.
Suicide Catalyst has 3764 EHP vs EMP.

That's equally true of Catalysts and ganking Hulks. Why do Catalysts get the protection of "not always a perfect shot" and Hulks don't?

Oh, and there are better Cane fits for ganking GCC Catalysts.

The Skiff can put up some 80k EHP with MLUs.

Now if the buffed ship is somehow able to now go about ganking ~profitably~. Like, you know, the Catalyst buff. Maybe some Amarr BC will become the top ganking ship (with lazerzzzz)

Oh that's a pity.

Now people won't be cargohold expanding their hulk, but they can still try to cram in the MLUs and use the rig slots for overclocks, right?

Nope.

So?

Hellcats

AHAX

What is worrying me most is that alot of miners flying around with a false sense of security and soon some of them start demanding new buff and we have thise debate aml over again

So, Crucible nerfed Ganking (by increasing the cost of ganking anything), then the Barge Buff nerfs ganking again. And you're saying it's just a "balance."

Post the eft block for that 1500 DPS catalyst.

You'll find you get better DPS with a T2 Burst Aerator and a Pashan's Turret Customization Mindlink.
With an Augmented Hobgoblin, it totals up to 1585.

Though, none of your incredibly meticulous straw man is at all relevant.

Where did I say that it was important to me to be able to one volley barges/exhumers? Quote and Link please.

Because Suicide Ganks are the only risk HS miners face. Without suicide ganking, there is no benefit for miners who are better equipped to cope with risks. When Suicide Ganking someone is profitable, someone will do it. When it is not (for instance, when someone bothers to Tank their Hulk), nobody (or very, very few people) will do it.

So, since suicide ganking Mackinaws is not profitable, nobody (or very, very few people) do it, so there's no reason to use the Skiff, ever. And since nobody (or very, very few people) are suicide ganking miners, the people who are too stupid or lazy to avoid suicide gankers don't gain any value from their ability.

When Gankers are plentiful, Ore Prices go up, so those who manage to avoid getting ganked get a higher return for their efforts, while those who cannot manage to do so get a lower return (cause they have to tank their ship or they have to recoup losses). Nerfing or Removing Suicide Ganking reduces or removes the profits that smart/industrious miners make over stupid/lazy miners.

Sorry, I meant to add the caveat "for mining." Since that's a bait ship.

Not at all. But the stated purpose of the Skiff is to be a mining ship with a bunch of EHP for, and I'll quote the Dev Blog,



So, since the Mackinaw provides sufficient protection against Suicide Gank to render it rare enough to be ignored (and all the Exhumers can easily deal with belt rats), what is the purpose of the Skiff in the context of mining?

What I said was that if a ship is effectively entirely outclassed by another ship in their class, then either they're underpowered or the ship outclassing them is overpowered. In the case of the Skiff, the Mackinaw has a better Yield, a bigger Ore bay, and tanks enough that Suicide Ganking operates at a significant loss. So the Skiff is effectively entirely outclassed. Buffing the Mack doesn't do anything, because the issue is that, for mining, tank after a certain point doesn't really matter, and buffing the other 2 useful stats just makes it another Mackinaw. So, to fix the problem of the Skiff being outclassed by ships that are supposed to be different, yet equal, you have to fix the overpowered buff to the EHP of Mackinaws and (to a lesser extent) Hulks.

Point to where someone involved in this thread (other than you) suggested that.

Though yes, that would solve this specific problem (and lead to a new problem of the Skiff overshadowing everything because of it's 15k m3 Ore Hold).

Welcome. back

And yes, I am. Because otherwise, HS mining is a risk free enterprise. Risk free enterprises aren't good for the game. Is there some reason why HS miners deserve to be the only people in the game who run no risk of loss in the performance of their economic activities?

Hulk is underperforming in relation to both the Skiff and the Mack. Switching the tank would solve this.

Sounds like you don't understand what .jpgs are.

Bad Jorma. No Strawmen. Bad.

No easy targets that have trouble affording the replacement ship.

So
1/3 the yield

Drop EHP to ~3k

Name the other risks high sec miners face. Its also important because its the only way we have to deal with bots who damage the game for other miners. Everyone else also faces the risk of being ganked if they do something silly like fit no tank so why should miners be exempt?

The hulk would also be in a better position as people who want max yeild would pick that and not be tempted to get a mack because of the better tank.

Not even our bank account is endless. The reason we could keep doing the interdiction for a month is because we were making money on it. As we went on the price of the ships we were using started to go up because our demand out stripped supply. These higher costs were met by the profits we made on the ganking.

In the end, we came out even discounting the isk we made on the market panic. A war on high sec miners is not cheap. Right now we are working out ways to kill macks as cheaply as possible but even so we are not breaking even.

People dont just use them for solo mining. Hulks dont mine enough to justify losing the cargo hold and the tank of a mack which is why the bots are all going for Macks.

Bolded the none relevant part.

Higher mineral prices are something a miner would be very interested in.

The mack is still doing the skiffs job which is the main argument here. The whole point of the skiff is to stop gankers but whats the point of the skiff if the mack does that job too as well as having the best hold and a yeild not too far from a hulk?

Its the base tank we are talking about.

And that 24% makes all the difference.

Hulk should have the best yield, worst cargo and in the middle on EHP.
Mack should have the best cargo, middle yield and worst EHP.
Skiff should have the best EHP, middle cargo and worst yield.

No. Pay attention.

It wouldnt get the highest risk factor. It would be on the same level as the hulk.

I personally think it should have the same tank and tankability (approximately) as a Hulk.

Hulk: flown by large ops (as it is now in small numbers; the Mack is still favored due to its larger tank).
Mack: flown for solo or small groups (unlike now, where it is used for both small and large groups because of its better tank over tthe hulk).
Skiff: flown to avoid profit based ganks (close to now, except no reason to not use a Mack as it can avoid those same ganks).


All three woudl be flown, depending on what you are doing/how worried you are.

Right now, the only reason people fly Skiffs is because they think they are safer (but they aren't) than in a tanked Mack.

No it would simply require you to fit something other than only MLU.

People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy.

Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk.

Yeah, because we never said anything like "switch the EHP of the Hulk and the Mackinaw."
Nope, not at all.

Why are you putting reinforced bulkhead IIs on a shield tanked ship?

It seems like someone loves strawmen.

Gee, it's almost as if you live in this little bubble where facts bounce right off and only rhetoric can come out.
You need to be freed, my friend, before you languish in there forever.

Again, what does that have to do with what I said?

Why is it so important for you to be able to AFK ice mine?

This guy gets it.

So, you want more CPU so you can fit more tan
K, is that
It? I think that you'll
Find that CCP has provided you with a
Fine ship that's designed to fill your needs.


If only I could remember it's name.

Can be. Rarely is it ever worth the effort.

Edit: Though, I could be overestimating the way people fit their Skiff. Mine doesn't undock without an AB.

Willing to be there is someone stupid enough to do this.

Logistic pilots still only have a choice of two ships.

No, it's true because for any gang you'll be using either armor or shield.

I mean, how many different flavors of mining barge do you really need?

And I've flown in several Abaddon fleets which were armor tanked, with Guardian support.

So you made the choice to limit yourself then didnt you.

Link one major fleet fight battle report with Shield Abaddons or stop lying.

Are you now claiming that the Drake and the Abaddon are the same ship? Because you claimed to be seeing Shield Abaddons and when called on it, you respond with "people fly shield Drakes."

The words don't even look similar.